INTERVIEW WITH MARIA McMAHON (nee Maria Ryan) born 1905 at Pericoe.
INTERVIEW DATE: September 14th, 1998

Maria McMahon was 93 at the time of this interview and living with her daughter Brigid. Her memories were clear when prompted but she was frail, and tired part way through the interview. However, she rallied and was keen to relate her life in the Pericoe and Burragate area.
Vivid memories of her sister Annie, burnt to death while they were burning off after clearing the land, as Maria said, will stay with her forever.
Thanks to Pauline Mohr who arranged the interview as she was also interested in Maria's memories. Both Brigid and Pauline contributed to this interview.

KATE. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS WHAT YOUR EARLY LIFE WAS LIKE WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP IN BURRAGATE. ALSO WHO YOUR PARENTS WERE AND WHERE THEY CAME FROM. WOULD YOU LIKE TO START WITH YOUR PARENTS?
MARIA. Yes. Well, my father was William Charles Ryan and he was born and bred in Bombala and then when he got married he began to shift around for work. He worked on the Big Jack Mountain (road) when it was coming through. And he married then. Mother was Helena Kerr from Rocky Hall. She was born in Pambula and her parents moved to a farm at Rocky Hall and she went to school at Rocky Hall.
KATE. WHAT SORT OF FARM DID THEY HAVE. WAS IT DAIRY?
MARIA. Dairy. Yes. They weren't so much in the grazing line in those days. It was more for dairying and that kind of thing. Cheese making and milking and butter. There was a butter factory at Rocky Hall for years.
KATE. SO THEY MILKED BY HAND?
MARIA. Yes.
KATE. HOW MANY COWS?
MARIA. Well, I couldn't say but perhaps forty or fifty cows in those days.
KATE. SO BY THE TIME THEY'D FINISHED MILKING IN THE MORNING IT WOULD BE TIME TO MILK IN THE AFTERNOON!
MARIA. Oh, well it was common to have perhaps three milkers and then they'd separate their milk by hand, that's when they didn't have any cheese factory to send it to but then for cream, they'd have to cart that several miles to a butter factory and that would be made into butter. And I think it would be transported then to, say, Merimbula and then to Sydney.
KATE. DID THEY HAVE A TRUCK, OR A HORSE AND CART?
MARIA. Horse and cart and bullock teams in those days. To cart the big bulky stuff they'd cart that by bullock teams and horse teams and for many years afterwards.
KATE. WHERE DID YOU GROW UP?
MARIA. Well, actually, I was born at Pericoe out from Towamba. And then my mother and father shifted into Burragate then and our father worked on the road there for a number of years and I went to school at Burragate. I had all my education there at school. We went to school until we were sixteen. There were no school exams or anything like that. And then we went back home to the farm. We lived on the farm and worked on the farm. And they had dairying and clearing by hand. My brothers were the clearers in those days. They cleared with an axe and we did the dairy. There were three sisters, Minnie, Elsie and myself. And the boys would come and feed the cows and things like that when it was necessary. There was no store feeding or anything like that, it was just open paddocks.
KATE. DID YOU HAVE YOUR OWN JOBS TO DO AS A CHILD?
MARIA. Yes. We milked the cows by hand and the poddy calves were reared and we fed them with the bucket. And that's how we made our....... and nobody was paid any wages in those times, we were just family kept. I had five brothers and three sisters.
KATE. YOU HAD PLENTY OF HELP?
MARIA. Well, of course the boys went out to clear the land.
KATE. HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOU HAD TO MILK THE COWS?
MARIA. Oh, seventeen, perhaps then. Yes. Them times there was no thought to send you out to work or anything. All families were kept along the same lines.

KATE. SO, YOU'D WORK ON THE FARM JUST TO MAKE A LIVING FOR THE FAMILY.
MARIA. Yes. We didn't go out in the paddocks working when we finished milking the cows and separating the milk ....and there were pigs to be fed too. By the time them jobs were done it was midday nearly.
KATE. DID YOU HAVE PLENTY TO EAT?
MARIA. Oh, plenty to eat. We were practically self supporting in those days. You grew your own vegetables, you grew your own meat, they killed sheep, pigs, and then the fruit trees, they provided the jam and preserved fruit, so therefore we were practically self supporting.
KATE. AND MUM MADE THE BREAD?
MARIA. Oh, Mum made the bread. Yes! She was the general cook until we got big enough to cook and then she taught us to cook and all that kind of thing. Yes.
KATE. I WAS TALKING TO ENIE LOVE AND SHE SAID SHE HAD HER UNDIES AND SINGLETS MADE OUT OF THE FLOUR BAGS.....DID YOU HAVE A SIMILAR THING?
MARIA. No. We made our aprons and things out of flour bags. You got a fifty pound bag of flour and it was like a calico bag. No we didn't make our underclothes .....because you could get calico and flannelette. We wore chemise them times, what they call chemise. It was made of calico and then our petticoats were made of flannelette and you learned to crochet and put a little edge around the neck and around the sleeves and around the bottom. And lace was so cheap to buy, well I say cheap, but it was dear to us, I suppose. Yes. And I think we didn't have a lot but we were pretty much on a line of what you are today. You see they get big wages today and then the tax comes out of that and everything that's taken out of that.......and then materials were so cheap to buy, to make....you made all your own dresses and coats, all that kind of thing.
KATE. BECAUSE NEEDLE WORK WOULD HAVE BEEN QUITE THE THING THEN.
MARIA. That was quite the thing in them days. We knitted and that....made all boys' socks and things....you see, the first world war came in when we were at school and our teacher had a brother in the army and she used to get a supply of khaki wool and we'd make socks, balaclavas and mittens for the soldiers. So therefore we learned to knit. So we carried that home and we knitted our own socks after that. My grandmother, she was a first class knitter and all that kind of thing is handed down to you. The elder sister did all the sewing but we all learned to sew.
KATE. AND SO, YOU'D GO TO A DANCE?
MARIA. Oh, yes. We danced once a fortnight in the hall....
KATE. AT PERICOE?
MARIA. No. Burragate. I was only small when I came to Burragate. We danced, we played tennis. That was our enjoyment. And then they'd go to a dance, it was only eight mile to Wyndham, eight mile to Towamba, in a horse and sulky or wagon.
KATE. DID YOU PLAY TENNIS?
MARIA. I played tennis, yes. And we played tennis matches between Wyndham and Burragate and Towamba and we even went out to Wog to play a tennis match, out through Pericoe, to Wog.
KATE. WHERE WERE THE TENNIS COURTS IN TOWAMBA? WAS THERE ONE NEAR THE WINE SHOP?
MARIA. Yes. That's where we played.
KATE. WAS THERE ANOTHER ONE?
MARIA. No, I think that was the only tennis court.
KATE. DO YOU REMEMBER THE WINE SHOP THERE.... WHEN IT WAS A
GUEST HOUSE?
MARIA. Yes. I remember the wine shop. Mrs. Parker kept that. I think she was the first woman to keep the wine shop. And a boarding house. Oh, no. George Martin. I remember him.
KATE. AND A MRS.GAIT?
MARIA. Mrs.Gait, yes. George Martin, Mrs. Parker, and Gait's.
KATE. WAS SHE THE LAST? WAS IT A GUEST HOUSE.......
MARIA. I think Parker......Darcy Parker, Darcy Parker lived there but whether he kept a guest house or.....he dairied there on the farm. You see, that property where the guest house was, when Mrs. Parker took it over and her husband, they bought that, the land, so therefore Darcy lived there till he died, I think. I'd say Darcy Parker was the last one.
KATE. DO YOU REMEMBER THE TOWAMBA STORE AND THE ONE OVER THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RIVER?
MARIA. Yes. Hartneady's.
KATE. I LIVE IN HARTNEADY'S OLD HOUSE.
MARIA. Do you?
KATE. YES. I'D BE INTERESTED IF YOU COULD REMEMBER ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
MARIA. Well, I can't remember that much in that line because we didn't travel that much. We went to tennis and that kind of thing. And when you realise you only had a horse and no vehicle.... and I was no horsewoman. I didn't get on the horse and ride to Towamba, no. And Alf Robinson kept the store and their families, we were friends with their girls, that's when they kept the store.
KATE. I SPOKE TO PERCE ROBINSON SOME YEARS AGO ....
MARIA. Did you? We danced with Perce once.....(laughter)
KATE. HE SAID HE COULD REMEMBER THE NIGHT THE TOWAMBA BRIDGE WAS WASHED AWAY.
MARIA. Yes. That would be 1919. I can remember that. That was one of the biggest floods we ever had. And I was sick in bed that time with the mumps.
KATE. SO YOU WERE SAFE THEN.
MARIA. Yes. And I got up to have a look out of the window to see where it had come up (the water) in the paddocks and that sort of thing. It had come right up.....you know where 'Sunnyside' is...well, it had come right up to the road.
KATE. I BELIEVE IT CAME RIGHT UP TO THE COUNTER IN THE SHOP.
MARIA. Yes. That's right.
KATE. IT WOULD HAVE GONE THROUGH THE WINE SHOP TOO.
MARIA. Yes. Oh, yes. That's like that Motel in Pambula. They haven't seen how it can flood. I've seen a flood in Pambula street!
KATE. AND THE OLD TOWAMBA BRIDGE....THAT'S THE NEW BUILDINGS BRIDGE NOW?
MARIA. That's the New Buildings bridge now. I remember that. Yes. Things have moved. In those times people didn't build on the hills.
PAULINE MOHR. You were born at Pericoe. Where abouts?
MARIA. I was born at Alexander's, in a house that belonged to Alexander's. My parents dairied for Alexanders.
PAULINE. 'Hayfield'? Kate and I were discussing it coming here and I can remember as a kid going out to the Martin's house which was the 'Hayfield' homestead, near the hospital.
MARIA. Martin's house would be the main Alexander house, would it?
PAULINE. No. It wasn't. The old Pericoe homestead was closest to the main road and the 'Hayfield' house was about another mile up into the bush towards Letts Mountain.
MARIA. I'd been born......I suppose they'd (her parents) been working for the old Alexander's place.
PAULINE. Was that Harold......Alexander?
MARIA. Well, there was Robert Alexander, Beau Alexander, Alf Alexander.....
PAULINE. I remember Dad (Stan Umback) spoke of Alf. He was the last owner, I believe.
MARIA. Alf was the youngest of them, yes. And you live at Towamba?
KATE. YES. IN HARTNEADY'S OLD PLACE.
MARIA. They only had one daughter, Hartneady's.
KATE. YES. WHAT WAS HER NAME?
MARIA. Thelda. She married Jack McLeod. Beasley's were a big family there in Towamba.
KATE. DID YOU GO TO SCHOOL WITH THE BEASLEY'S?
MARIA. No. They were in Towamba.
BRIGID. (Maria's daughter) What year did you move to Burragate Mum?
MARIA. Now you're asking me something! Now my brother was born at Burragate and if he was alive today he'd be 87.
KATE. I WAS DOING A SURVEY FOR THE NATIONAL TRUST AND THE CEMETERY AT BURRAGATE NEVER HAD ANY BURIALS....
MARIA. No. Rocky Hall.
KATE. SO BURRAGATE PEOPLE WERE BURIED IN ROCKY HALL CEMETERY?
MARIA. Rocky Hall and Towamba. My people are buried in Rocky Hall. I've got my mother, two brothers and two sisters are buried there. My father, he died in Bega, his relatives were in Bega so he was buried there.
KATE. WAS THERE MUCH RIVALRY BETWEEN THE VARIOUS RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS. DID YOU ALL GET ON WELL OR DID YOU HAVE YOUR SEPARATE SOCIAL GATHERINGS?
MARIA. No. We all mixed together. Yes. We played tennis and joined in together.
KATE. SO IF YOU HAD A CHURCH SERVICE WAS IT HELD IN THE HALL?
MARIA. No. The church people.....the Presbyterian was the main service in those days, they were held in the hall. But we went to Rocky Hall to the church. My mother was christened in the little church at Rocky Hall.
BRIGID. It was up past where the cemetery is now. Just some steps there now Mother tells me.
MARIA. You can see the steps of the church.
KATE. WAS THERE EVER TALK OF HAVING A CHURCH AT BURRAGATE?
MARIA. The population was never big enough. The majority of the people at Burragate was Presbyterian in those times. Presbyterians and Methodist.
BRIGID. You were telling me, Mum, that if you had a church service they didn't play tennis until church came out.
MARIA. Yes. We all stopped playing tennis, went off to church and came back to play again. And those who didn't go sat and waited until they came out of church. (laughter) We respected that.
BRIGID. So you couldn't say there was any rivalry. (laughter)
MARIA. And we never did anything else, but play tennis on a Sunday. But as far as manual
work.....no. There was no gardening, and no crocheting. (laughter) We worked six days a
week and Sunday was our day of rest. And if there was any visiting to be done, it was done on Sundays.
KATE. WAS YOUR HOUSE WEATHER BOARD?
MARIA. Plaster lined.
KATE. HOME MADE PLASTER?
MARIA. It was what they call, lime plaster. It was plaster and it was smooth and then it was painted. Other than that in your lounge-room it was wall paper. You'd get wall paper for sixpence a roll. And then you made your own paste with plain flour and boiled water.
KATE. HOW DID YOU GET THINGS LIKE THAT. DID YOU BUY THROUGH A CATALOGUE?
MARIA. Well, we bought through a catalogue for our clothing and machinery. I had an old catalogue here once...you could buy a lantern for six shillings.
KATE. WERE THEY THE STORES IN SYDNEY. HORDENS?
MARIA. Yes. There was Hordens and F.W.Williams was a big store in Sydney. And the men, when they were to build a house, everything would come on the boat to the wharf at Main Street, (Merimbula) that's where all the cargo would go down there. Bullock teams, everything would go down. They brought the wheat from the Monaro down.....wool, mainly wool.
BRIGID. What house did you live in when you first came to Burragate, Mum?
MARIA. Well, its pulled down now. We lived close to the hall.
BRIGID. Then you moved over to 'Sunnyside'.
MARIA. Yes.
BRIGID. Were you still at home when they bought 'Sunnyside'?
MARIA. Oh, yes. My father was farming. When we lived in Burragate, father worked on the boat and the boys went dairying at 'Lyndhurst'. That's where they went dairying. That's where they bought the farm from. They shifted out of it. And between.....when you cross the river from 'Lyndhurst', you went into a certain acreage, that was what they called 'the common'. Well they bought that separate to the farm.
PAULINE. That was where the Harris' are now. On Shipway's corner.
MARIA. Yes, well that shop, (Shipway's had a shop in Burragate) that shop was the main thing in Burragate, Shipway's. They kept the Post Office and it was on the river. (On the river flat just off to the right at the junction of the Towamba - Burragate Road and Sheepskin Road, in Burragate.) Well, the 1919 flood took that. And there were houses just inside 'Lyndhurst's' gate.
PAULINE. When Mum and Dad (Stan and Ilene Umback) sold 'Lyndhurst' they sold two sub divisions there.
MARIA. And where Gilbert lived there, at Sawers' on the hill, who's there now? (The green roofed house with the gable window)
PAULINE. New people have just moved in. And that was the old hospital in Burragate, I understand. Is that right?
MARIA. No. That was across the road. They called it the 'Bush Nurse' in those times.
KATE. WHAT DID YOU DO IF SOMEONE GOT BITTEN BY A SNAKE, OR BROKE A LEG... AND BABIES....?
MARIA. Well, babies....my brother Fin was born at Burragate.....just with a neighbour who used to do the midwife's work and I was only saying, there was ten of us in the family and my youngest sister was the only one born in a hospital. And the only one that mother'd ever had a doctor for. And she was born over here at Pambula. You see, now, Josie is eighty two,
Carmen's eighty.
KATE. YOUR MOTHER WOULD HAVE HAD SOME MEDICAL EXPERIENCE HAVING TO COPE IF ANYTHING WENT WRONG WITH ALL THOSE KIDS.
MARIA. Well, of course, its like this now. Everything's moved on so much but they managed in this way. Everybody was doing the same thing and they carried on. See, there was no doctors in them days closer than Bega.
KATE. SO THERE WAS NEVER A RUSH TO HOSPITAL WITH ANYBODY.
MARIA. Oh, no. You nursed at home.
BRIGID. The bush nurse was very important.
MARIA. Yes. She was important in those times. See, that was in another generation. I can remember six generations......I've got my own grandmother, my own mother, myself, my children, their children and their children.
KATE. AND THE WOMEN WHO HELPED....WHO WERE THE MIDWIVES, WERE THEY QUALIFIED OR DID THEY JUST HAVE A NATURAL SKILL.....
MARIA. No. It just came natural to them. Look, now.......there were people living out at Pericoe and one of their children was being born and they sent her to Bega hospital and the husband went over when the time came round .......this is a true story....and he was there for the birth because when the next child was born, he was going to nurse the mother at home, she wouldn't come to hospital. And I suppose the mothers and nurses and that kind of thing talked to one another....handed it down. You see, your cough medicine....you'd get a little bottle from the general store or boil up half a gallon of water....you don't see it now but they used to grow around here was horehound plants. You'd put some of the plant in and boil that up with it.
KATE. WHAT KIND OF PLANT WAS IT?
MARIA. Horehound. They used to make a type of beer out of it too. It was a healthy brew. See, you get the health food that has come in today, all that was used then. There were no chemicals and things. The horehound was boiled and strained and when it got cool you'd tip in the stuff you got from the store and that would be the family's cough mixture. If you had a really bad cold on your chest you'd get camphor and olive oil, that relieves your chest. One of my girls had croup and we were in Sydney and she got a bout and the chemists weren't open on a Saturday night, so before we went out this old man said to get a bottle of castor oil and some grated nutmeg and make a brown paper shirt. I said that I wouldn't like to use castor oil, it would blister. No, he said, don't scrub it. It'll draw inflammation. Then of course, Vicks ointment came in then. Now of course, you go to the doctor and he gives you some antibiotics. And I see Pauline pull her nose when I said castor oil...(laughter).
PAULINE. I've had many infusions of castor oil. (laughter)
MARIA. That was your medicine, castor oil. If you were sick you got castor oil. Or we got a dose of salts. Epsom salts.
KATE. THAT WAS ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER REALLY QUICKLY. (laughter) BETTER THE CASTOR OIL ON THE OUTSIDE THAN ON THE INSIDE!
MARIA. I'm like Pauline, I can nearly taste it too! (laughter)
KATE. DID YOUR GRANDFATHER COME FROM IRELAND?
MARIA. Yes.
KATE. AND SETTLE IN BOMBALA?
MARIA. My grandfather came from Ireland and my grandmother came from England.
KATE. HOW DID THEY GET TO BOMBALA? WERE THEY EMPLOYED FROM IRELAND, TO COME OUT.....
MARIA. Well, you have heard of the Geraghty family in Cathcart? Well, my grandmother had a sister married to a Geraghty of Cathcart. She had a family of fifteen children and so she sent home for her sister to come out to help her. And paid her way on the boat at them times, to come out to her. And when she came out here, she worked six months for them to pay back her fare. She always said that was the hardest six months work she'd ever done.
KATE. WHAT YEAR WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN?
MARIA. Oh, dear.....
BRIGID. How old was Nanny Ryan when she died?
MARIA. Grandmother was eighty-six.
BRIGID. What year was that?
MARIA. Well, if you're any good at adding up....she died when I was eleven year old.
BRIGID. Mum was born in 1905, so she died in 1916. She died then and she was....?
MARIA. Eighty six.
BRIGID. So she was born in 1870.
MARIA. Roughly speaking of course. I can remember when Grandmother died real well because Father had gone to Bega and taken Elsie and I, we had an uncle in Candelo and an uncle in Bega, so he took us with him, and he went over on some land business or something and when we got over to Bega, we were at our uncle's in Bega, he came in, we were sitting at dinner, and he came in and he told Father that his mother had died. And I was eleven when I went with him.
BRIGID. 1920.
MARIA. Yes.
PAULINE. And when you went to Bega, how long did it take you to get from Burragate to Bega? Three days?
MARIA. No. Well, we'd start in the morning and we'd go to Candelo and stay with our uncle.
PAULINE. Stay the night?
MARIA. Yes.
PAULINE. Two days.
MARIA. Yes. Two days. The same back home. But I think when we came...I think we stayed a couple of days at Candelo with our uncle because I can always remember....he had a little motor car and he took us out to see 'Kameruka' estate and that was a beautiful place. There was flowers and oh, the different things they had at 'Kameruka'!
BRIGID. That was Frank Ryan.
MARIA. Yes.
BRIGID. What did he have in Candelo?
MARIA. Uncle Frank was a saddler and his wife kept the little store. And Uncle Jim was the undertaker. Now he used to go around and bury people with a horse and the undertaker's van.....like a dark van. It came to Towamba and all out there. Actually speaking, Father really wasn't a farmer himself when he took on to the land.
KATE. SO, IRELAND TO BOMBALA....IT'S ALMOST UNBELIEVABLE ANYBODY WOULD......
MARIA. Yes. Well, Grandfather Ryan came to Sydney, I understand and that's where Grandmother met him and he finally came to Bombala. Now, he was a cabinet maker. That was his trade from Ireland.
BRIGID. They got married in Sydney, did they?
MARIA. Yes.
BRIGID. And what was his name? What was great grandfather's name?
MARIA. Isador.
BRIGID. Then there was a son Isador.
MARIA. No. My brother was Isador.
BRIGID. Who was the oldest boy in the family?
MARIA. Gilbert and Leo, Minnie and Elsie. I was the seventh one.
BRIGID. Did you tell them about Annie?
MARIA. No. I didn't.
KATE. WHO WAS ANNIE?
MARIA. Annie was the second eldest, she was born....now where was she born.....Minnie and Leo I think were born in Pambula. Annie would have been born at Cathcart. Gilbert was born at Cathcart and I'd say Annie would be and Leo and Minnie were born in Pambula. See Father was in the mining there at Pambula.
KATE. GOLD MINING?
MARIA. Gold mining. And the gold mining fields at Yambulla. That's how it took them to Yambulla and they would make their fortunes but I don't think they did. Issy was born at Yambulla and then Elsie, Ted and myself were born at Pericoe. Fin was born at Burragate, Josie was born in Pambula.
BRIGID. Now tell her about Annie, Mum.
MARIA. Now, when Annie was eleven, or ten, she got burnt to death at Pericoe on the Alexander farm. They were clearing it. You see, in them times the land had to be cleared. The land was being cleared and it was up on a hill, the house was down below. And anyway they went burning off this day and by some means Elsie got up there and the mother sent Annie after Elsie, to bring Elsie home. When Annie went up to get Elsie, in those days they wore flannelette dresses in winter time, July, and flannelette dresses in those days were thick flannelette and anyway when she got up there and told Elsie to come back...Elsie would only be about two year old, and she ran away and Annie got after her and Annie got around the corner and a flame hit the back of her dress. She went up in flames. So you could imagine the mother's plight at the house. She come running down the hill, mother sang out to Gilbert to pull her down, she said to Gilbert, anyway, she ran past Gilbert and when she got down to the house...all she had on them times was a pair of leather boots, singlet, chemise, panties...they rushed her in and put her on the bed. It was kapok and she was so hot she set the bed on fire. And when the doctor come ...they must have brought the doctor from Pambula, he said if she had of lived she'd have been a total invalid because all the oils was gone out of her. That relieved our mother from some of her grief. And my goodness me, what a sight! Yes...... she was just eleven.

AND THAT'S THE WAY IT WAS.


RYAN

Maria's grandfather: Isador Ryan
Grandmother: Maria Gilbert
Father: William Charles Ryan
Mother: Helena Kerr

William Ryan and Hellena Kerr's children:
Not in order of birth
Isadore, Elsie, Edward,
Maria, Fin, Josie, Annie.